yeah, there's already some up-and-coming doujin shooters that are looking better than half of these (one I can think of off the top of my head is Feather Ether's StellaVanity - located at http://www.feathered-ether.com/ - which is pretty much a wet dream for people that play CAVE's shmups like DoDonPachi. trial's already been released, too)

I don't mean to insult anyone, but when I see videos of new shmups I hadn't seen before, I am always surprised how it seems to me that the whole genre basically has not evolved at all over the last 15 or 20 years. I get the impression that Ikaruga really stands out as one of the only shmups with an altered game mechanic, that was obviously also simply copied by many other shmups, and there only seem to be few exceptions like Warning Forever and Kenta Cho's games which are at least somewhat different.

I think I understand the appeal of shmups and I do like some myself, but I can not understand how so very little evolution in an entire genre can keep so many people interested.

Of course, I haven't played a great lot of shmups myself because of that impression, so feel free to prove me wrong if I am :)

I think no one will ever beat tyrian in the vertical shooter type.

MisterX: I feel that way about shooters and fighting games.

But I suspect it's just because I don't enjoy or really "get" that type of game -- I know people who feel the same way about platformers for example, but LOVE all sorts of shooters and fighting games.

Not bad at all. Reflex over Kamui is a crime, though. No Flame Zapper Kotsujin sucks, but I can understand that most people aren't going to be aware of non-Windows doujin games.

"I don't mean to insult anyone, but when I see videos of new shmups I hadn't seen before, I am always surprised how it seems to me that the whole genre basically has not evolved at all over the last 15 or 20 years"

Well, that's kind of the point. The broader shooter genre has evolved tremendously, of course, but the reason the simpler format still exists is because it remains the purest of all action game genres, and there's something appealing about that simplicity.

So they have evolved, but when they evolve too much, they stop being "shmups" (though I hate that word). And that's ok.

I dont think that this implied "dualism" is true. That something "evolves" doesn't necessarily imply that it has to get more complicated. Really interesting innovations usually are built on a very simple idea.

So nope, i neither consider "conventional simplicity for convetional simplicity's sake", nor "chaotic complexity, for chaotic complexity's sake" interesting evolution. The first approach just copies, and the second approach just adds stuff for the sake of adding stuff. Neither of the two really need unique ideas.

Stuff becomes interesting, when neither of the two is the case: when someone comes up with an interesting but simple modification which works well.

That doesn't even necessarily need to be in the gameplay itself - it may also be in the presentation. Take for example "Mind Wall" from the recent ludum dare compo.... that gameplay concept is so old, that if the game only depended on that, it would be boring and cheesy as hell... and yet, it is one of the most refreshing and interesting games i played this year so far - because of the presentation.

Travis, I've thought about the comparison to, for example, shooters, but I see a lot more change there. Currently the mainstream shooters are nearly all about third person-perspectives and cover systems, or rather only a single system that's used over and over again. It is getting repetitive, but it will also change sooner or later.

Also, Lyx, I agree that evolution doesn't have to mean making things more complex, and I understand that "shmups" are very fine the way they are.
I may see this a bit differently, but I can't gain any more interest in new classic Super Mario games because they are nearly the same as they used to be many years ago. And I've played these old games, and then there were similar games that I played, but by now I just don't have any more interest in it because I've had enough of these. And, to stick to that comparison, I get the impression that even most of these new shmups are mainly just "classic Super Marios" with different graphics.

So, that is actually true, and the difference between me and the fans is just that they don't lose interest in it, even though it doesn't change much? :)
Which, again, I don't mean in an offensive way.

Regarding Shmups, i think the problem is the "environment". Its not like no interesting ideas happen in the shmup world, but they are rare - and when it is done, then it either stays in an "experiment"-stage forever, instead of being polished up into a package, which has just as high production qualities, as it has innovation.... or, the other alternative, just that is actually done, the game becomes popular, and then it is copied over and over, because as i said, there isn't really a large pool of working fresh ideas to draw from. Anyone remember the neon-glow visual style introduced by geometry wars? Yeah, i really like that... i also like that now that style is common.... but: is that all?

Regarding the mentioned "experiment"-stage shmups which make use of unique ideas, try for example "Rayhound".

Oh, and if you need a quick impression about what rayhound is about, here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwWE3GoHG3k&NR=1

I agree, Rayhound is very nice, I liked to play it for quite a while when I found out about it. I was actually surprised when I recently checked TIGS.com and the IG Weblog and didn't find more than a post about an early version of it. Like Warning Forever, Rayhound is one of the few games similar to the common shmups that are so different and unique that I actually find them interesting :)

I love you guys so much.

i knew it was a bad idea to check the Indiegames blog at work.

It's not doujin, but Tyrian is great shmup. There's open source version:
http://code.google.com/p/opentyrian/

Runs on many platforms/consoles.

I think the appeal of shmups, as recanted by shmuppers, was that you don't have to invest yourself in a game: no level grinding, no learning curve... Just press the start button, dodge bullets, and shoot bullets back. It's the only genre to exalt SCORE any longer. In this way, the player can judge his or her performace against other players instantly.

This kind of game is very good for busy people.

I also noticed that as I played more shmups, I became better at shmups as a whole. So the skill you develop in one game carries over to the next. This may be why they do not change much.

I've played a fair few vertical and horizontal shooters and my sentiments are rather similar to MisterX. My first experience was with Xenon 2: Megablast which was pretty shit. Then it was on to SWIV and R-type with a few other minor diversions along the way. X-out was pretty good at the time and a few others like Aphidya. I really enjoyed Radiant Silvergun and Ikaruga but was ground into a paste by the difficulty. I'm incredibly patient and persevering but Ikaruga just genuinely scared me off. I played a hell of a lot of Tyrian back in the day. You could do a level without having to memorise any sort of bullet hell because you'd tailored your ship to your play style which I kind of like. Oh and I was really impressed by the mechanic in Tumiki Fighters.

@Zack

I agree with you up to a point. Granted you can pick up a shooter and have a good blast but more often than not the game requires you learn the enemy and bullet patterns to stand a chance of progressing much - this to me seems like grinding or at the very least a steep learning curve. Ikaruga made me realise that while the polarity mechanic was simple (and genius) it added another layer of difficulty on top of the already mental bullet hell. Man, it crippled me!

MisterX, there are two rules to getting the most out of a shmup:

1. Play on a single credit. Credit spamming a shmup is like playing a FPS with the god cheat on.

2. Play for score. Scoring systems are where the rubber meets the road in a shmup. There is a HUGE difference between DoDonPachi (Chaining) Shikigami no Shiro (Bullet Scraping) and Ketsui (Point Blank kills). If you're ignoring score and just hiding in the corner the whole game, you're missing out.

Arcade games have more in common with pinball machines than the average home game grind-a-thon. Whether they translate well to the home environment is up to the player

Insert blatant plug for Shoot the Bullet here. I'm kind of gutted that it wasn't featured in the Touhou section, as it's easily the most innovative game in that category.