I would like to announce that to compensate for this loss, the gutter now costs $20. Please update the post with this serious news.

http://hotseat.thepoppenkast.com/gutter/gutter.php

hahaha

Ah... the joy of indie games taking the piss out of other indie games.. Pricelsess.

Lugaru is actually 75.187...% off.

"For free"? They should pay US for playing their worthless game.

a lot of people said the point of the graveyard was the reward of earning death through payment of money/work.

can you imagine how dumb they must feel now?

Tales of Tales got upset and ranted on twitter these comments, then deleted all the tweets about 15 minutes later. :\

I live in Belgium and pay taxes. Did you know this game is basically funded by our governement. Now you know how I feel...

Heck, I bought Lugaru full price already, long time ago :( good game.
So how much are they paying to play the Graveyard? I may think about playing it if the pay me $1000,000.

I can't believe this is "a game" that was actually charging you to play with...

I'm so upset for many differents reasons (and you have absolutely no idea how in fact).

I can just tell you that it's not fair!

yeah. that was me. I usually don't deal with the comments sections of game blogs. *sigh* because I know what its going to be like. I know I won't understand where all the hostility is coming from. Don't understand what the big deal is with the hate. And I didn't want to just vent it out on twitter because the vast majority of people who follow us there wouldn't come here and therefore wouldn't know what the hell I was going on about.

but yeah... where to begin with this site, with you people, with the Belgian and "his tax money" ....

seriously, all can can say is one day we will make something you will love, most likely it will happen by accident that you play it before you realize it was we who made it and you will hate yourself afterwards. ;)

maybe commenting is a game and you all enjoy the flame.

i don't know... maybe its a boy thing? hmm... anyway, carry on.

My work here is done.

o Anonymous, I doubt your work will ever truly be done.

I'm actually a bit confused. I thought most of the highly hateful comments in the past were mainly trolling and such. One guy starts, another picks up and then it becomes some childish meme thing and most just follow.
But, it's actually even more serious than that, isn't it?

Anyway, I've played The Graveyard for the first time now. I liked the atmosphere and the very good looks, but I didn't enjoy it as a whole. Still, I can hardly understand why something like this would spawn so much hatred towards the developers. Especially as, and it's unfortunate that this has to be said time and time again, they are also just humans. With actual feelings!

Criticize and complain all you want, but insults and attacks are just so poor.

Of course you can make a game we love! Just give that old lady a shotgun and chainsaw. Let the zombies come out of those graves, and let the fun begin. Easy isn't it?

Try to emo and ragefit a little less, Tale of Tales. If it's any consolation, there are tons of other developers out there handling criticism badly, and doing just as poor a job as you when it comes to making games.

And no, I won't play Graveyard even if it's free, you'd need to pay me. You could always start making Games instead of whatever it is you're making now.

If you're serious about wanting to make us feel guilty about hating on you guys by making something we love, first you're going to need to make something people actually enjoy. Baby steps.

Is there any issue with simply, silently accepting that you dislike the game-or-whatever-you-want-to-call-it The Graveyard and that it likely just isn't for you?

"You guys are such dicks, I wanted to play a game, and now you idiots made a movie, wtf", or what?

Is there something wrong with saying you don't like something? If you go to Facebook, there's a million groups that beg for a 'dislike' option, because you just can't get around with only a 'like' option. Why would it be any different here? If you don't like something, you should be allowed to say so, instead of staying silent unless you like something. This place isn't Indie's Little Praise-Corner, is it?

But you are aware of the difference between "I think this is bad, because of this and that, and that thing should've also been improved" and "This sucks so much, the developers are so stupid, they should pay ME to play this crap", no?

I think I have done my part to criticize ToT's work on these comment pages in the past. This has not been done out of hatred, malice, or confusion. Quite simply, I think ToT present their work as 'art games' while failing (even by their own manifesto, it seems) to present anything of artistic value in the realm of games. They've perhaps presented art movies and art 3D models in the loose context of 'games', but no actual exploration (or even mere repetition) in that area.

I believe the above is true whether or not you believe, as I do, that games can (and sometimes should) be engaging and moving without being fun.

To elaborate by analogy:
A game is comprised of interaction. This means that the artistic point of the game should generally relate strongly to interaction. ToT games do not do so. This is equivalent in some regards to an otherwise beautiful painted portrait where the central figure is simply photographed and the image roughly attached. It may be very clear that a great deal of skill and artistic talent was used to paint the rest of the painting or that the photograph was taken with great skill, but it's still a very poor painting. This sort of shortcoming, I think, is why people criticize ToT so strongly. Something about their work points to a clever artistic game, while the implied game does not actually exist.

So, has anyone played Lugaru?

Just bought Lugaru for my MacBook. Runs pretty well. Though the controls make me a bit dizzy. Does anyone have any tips for playing it on a laptop? Or do you need a mouse?

I have mixed feelings about the ToT games, but I respect them for doing what they feel is right for them.

What I don't respect is the constant assertions that all men are mentally challenged, and that anyone who doesn't enjoy one of their games must be a "man".

This isn't high school anymore.

Lugaru is good. I think they could have written a great story but they didn't elaborate on it, it is more about the gameplay and the unique fighting & physics feature -overall the game is pretty good despite being a bit clunky sometimes. And it's a bit old so no jaw-dropping graphics -but who cares. I hope they are bringing both story and gameplay together in Overgrowth. I also played it on my Macbook. And yes, I'd definitely use a mouse.

i want to hear more about this belgian.

He sounds sinister. He's probably a shadowly figure chasing after the Tale of Tales crew as they conduct their world tour, with a talking dog. Sometimes he'll kidnap one of their friends that they just met in a country, and Tale of Tales will have to save the day and sing 1970s songs.

We could make some awesome games about The Belgian.

The Graveyard is not a game, and I won't play it!

Alex, now _you're doing it. ;)

Haha. Well, I'm sure if we ever said anything about men being mentally challenged, I'm sure we were referring exclusively to men who like playing videogames. HAHAHAHA!

Uh... what?

I'm sorry but no, people DO need to call out 'The Graveyard' for the crap that it is. Seriously, you walk Grandma to a bench and then walk her out of the park? That's your game?

It would be harmless if the creators didn't obviously think so highly of themselves, and if they didn't get awards for doing pointless nonsense. That's indicative of a problem in the way people see games, and that's what ticks us off. If you'd just released this piece of garbage and everyone had rejected it, no biggie. But if even one person pretends there's something there to celebrate ... biggie. Big biggie.

You're the modern version of the people who, in the 19th century, claimed that Bizet or Bruckner couldn't create decent music - sorry, I know, just Google their names or something.

Couldn't help laughing at that last comment, since Jason Rohrer actually respects and admires Tale of Tales very much from what I know.

I get it that you don't understand their work - clearly not meant for players like those who left their comments here today and that's perfectly natural. But this has gone from a simple allergic reaction to the point of harassment and mockery. And that's... shameful.

Tale of Tales certainly don't deserve all the childish hate you spew at them. No one deserves the constant barrage of repulsive hate actually.

There are other verbs you can use to describe a game instead of "crap" or "shit". Grow up a little.

Good gravy, this was the most psychotic thread about a free game on offer I've ever seen. I love it.

I love how dieubussy is comparing Tale of Tales to Bizet and Bruckner. Way to make those trolls look ludicrous.

Oh, wait.

Haha, way to go, dieubussy. Teach'em! I think that the rest of you guys are too deep in this whole anti-tale of tales thing. Just relax. Don't like it, say you don't like it. Now when you begin to use words like "shit" and stuff you're actually saying you're not capable of writing anything mildly constructive. And I think indiegames.com is above that so mind your own language.

sad thing is that people don't get it

I downloaded the demo of the graveyard a while ago. It said pretty clearly "this is more of an interactive painting than a game." I realize the link here doesn't provide that disclaimer, but seriously... paintings and music don't automatically become terrible when you add a little interactivity.

It's not meant to be a game, just something to experience what it's like to be old for a little while. I don't think it's brilliant. I agree with an earlier post that the best uses of interactive media involve more actual interaction, but if you're judging it based on how much fun you had then you're completely missing the point.

The haters have obviously not explored every side path ;)

More seriously though, thank you for offering your work for free. Not sure yet whether I should have turned down the offer instead, but thanks anyway, may your generosity not go unrewarded ;)

BTW, I got death on the first try, did I win?

Alley, to win is but a possible outcome of a game. To win, lose or draw. But there is so much more to life than that. And, eventually, that is one of the ultimate lessons to be learned from The Graveyard.

@Dieubussy: I fully agree. There's so much more to life than playing The Graveyard. So why waste your time on this?

I understand this game. Still, it's a bad game.

It's a good game.

I like how much effort everyone makes on hating this kind of crap and publicizing it and gems like
theblackheart.com.ar gets ignored by everywhere.
"who cares about games where everything was made out of scratch and with effort, have some more "fake art" games, they can pretend to be deep by being lazy and doing nothing at all!"

@mané:

Agreed. It is pretty stupid that other, cooler games get ignored while we re-examine Tale of Tales' silly art games for the millionth time. Yeah, yeah, we get it. They aren't really games, etc. Now show us something that we actually want to play and/or pay for.

He just did, in that theblackheart.com.ar link. The art aside, which seems to have been done by your average Deviantart user, it looks quite interesting.

Oh, I know. The intended listener shifted from mané to the indie games news community. It wasn't expressed implicity, because my last comment was art.

It wasn't meant to be read at face value, but taken in like a fine wine and savored.

Considered.

Felt.

We would be better off discussing it(the link) than to have a 50 post discussion about a "game" that has no gameplay and where you paid the "artists" to let the lady die already.

But apparently "art" indie games are superior to games where effort is placed as pieces for discussion.

I understand the arguments against 'art' games - it's publishers often mistake obscurity for depth and the pretentiousness of their games sometimes seems a construction to hide an inability to design a good game.

Some suggest that a good art game should use the characteristics of a game instead of dumbing them down in favour of showcasing art.

But can a game (or something along those lines) be good if it's not either pure entertainment or well designed art?

I don't know anything about Tale of Tales. Being Dutch, I could understand the original lyrics of the song. Both factors may have a positive influence on my appreciation of the experience. I liked guiding the old woman to the bench, not doing anything spectacular or entertaining - It made me feel calm, maybe a bit gloomy.

I also liked that it was what it was. You're not pursuaded to think anything in particular - the author didn't try to make the game 'clever' by suggesting some deeper meaning or making statements about life.