Pick up a copy at the link that leads to a deadend site with the letters VVVVVV changing colors?

The game is about to appear in literally a few minutes time, don't be so speedy please :)

You were too speedy, not me!

Gah, foiled!

Actually I've heard through the grapevine that it might be a number of more hours before release due to unforeseen circumstances, but I'm still going to keep the link as it is - I'm sure other people will be able to read these comments and understand what's going on :)

Still not ready... I want to be the first to buy!

Ever since shortly after this game got released on bittorrent, I've been wanting to pick up a copy. I've heard nothing but amazing things, and want to show Terry that as long as he's sinking his soul into a project, there's people out there willing to sink their money into it in support.

I just can't wait for those letters to make way for something that will let me play this magical game!

I donated to him earlier. Will he just send me an e-mail so I can download it?

It's out now! If you donated you should have gotten an email; if you don't see it, check your spam folder!

Yup, spam folder.

Can't wait to play the final build!

i got the preorder email just fine, no spam folder.

not much to add to this post except that it's a great game. there aren't enough non-linear games with fairly substantial worlds to explore out there. even just wandering around the large world is fun. those who only play the demo don't really get to experience the exploration element, because the demo seems to be just two guided levels, rather than the world, so if you felt the demo was too linear the full game will be more to your liking.

My head is now substantially more bald than an hour ago. This game is kicking my butt, and I just can't tear myself away.

The demo was fun, but it was also not all that difficult and only took a couple minutes to finish.

Does the full version ramp up the difficulty at all compared to the areas in the demo?

corey: yes, definitely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtA1uaewA0

fun, but there could be less input lag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKtA1uaewA0

This is supposed to be fun? Count me out. The demo was just an exercise in a frustration. I love Pathways and Judith and Don't Look Back, but this game has no emotion. It's just a bland exercise in confusion and frustration. A monitor reads "syntax error", a character says he will explain everything and the player doesn't even get to hear the explanation, many of the room names have nothing to do with anything. Putting a lot of effort into not making sense is a waste of effort. If there is any real story to be found, it will have to be unlocked in pieces by going through unrelated, teeth-pullingly frustrating gameplay - the same failed disjointed dichotomy in mainstream games except the story is even harder to earn and even more brusque. I think this thread is an exercise in trying to force something to live up to hype. Y'all are seriously raving that the game is making your hair fall out. There is a reason the Angry Nerd makes an internet living out of making fun of games that are this obnoxious. This review is clearly full of inaccuracies that the author subconsciously knows as lies. Notice the intro focuses on the irony of the smile on the main character as he is put through these extreme reflex tests. There is all this talk about how the music and art is supposed to make the irritating gameplay worthwhile - the music is decent and might have some chiptune influence but is NOT chiptune despite the claims of the demo and this article. The art / story are pretty much the same as Time Fcuk, but a little worse and Time Fcuk wasn't great on that point to begin with. I don't know who said "No Pain, No Game", but it was probably someone deluding themselves into thinking it was worthwhile to get through a particularly bad NES game, or maybe Rick Dangerous. I'll admit I was once a masochist, too, but I am trying to better myself now and can't see how this game will do so. For $15 Braid offered puzzles, art and a moving story. This game offers empty apologies in the form of levels called "I'm Sorry" and "Please Forgive Me", presumably for how much this game let us down on the promises of Cavanaugh's earlier projects. I wanted this guy to succeed until this game; this game I cannot reward with my scarce money. I think the worst part of this article is the idea that this game contains "puzzles". Maybe it does, but the demo contained nothing but tests of cheap dexterity tricks. This might be a bad year for indie games. Instead of games that tell stories, we have two hyped titles with stories that aim to be vacuous and that celebrate torturous gameplay. I suppose this game wins out when compared to a gorefest involving a hunk of meat pursuing some sex object made out of bandages. The frustration doesn't hurt the game "especially since our dear Veridian's response to getting spiked is to let free a pixelated scream, plonk himself at the latest checkpoint and continue to beam that prevalent smile of his." Especially? Meaning, that's the BEST reason the game isn't hampered by tedious repetitions until you are lucky enough to pass through some anger-inducing obstacle unrewarded? Deep down, you know that you don't like this game. Find the courage to stop mincing words and admit it. If I want to memorize a bunch of keyboard movements for a specific game that have no use elsewhere in my life, I'll do it for Starcraft and maybe I'll win some money in Korea. I mean look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPWO2HN3VmA&NR=1
Took some poor chap 2 hours to do this. And it felt "so satisfying". I bet he can't articulate a good reason why.

Great game. it's been a long time since I had so much fun playing a video game. I wonder if it's tied to playing C64/NES/VCS2600 in my childhood, but I'm sure everyone can enjoy this game.
I would even go back and try again the rooms, just to find a more effective/elegant way of going through.
You can clearly feel how much work went into this game and for that: huge props & thanks to Terry and Magnus :)

"Took some poor chap 2 hours to do this. And it felt "so satisfying". I bet he can't articulate a good reason why"

Pyrrhuloxia can you explain what "Love" is ?
This what I really like about this game, you can try to explain but you have to feel it to understand.
And you can't be forced to :)

"Deep down, you know that you don't like this game."

Y'know, it's one thing saying "I didn't like this" and another thing accusing everyone of being liars to the core because they share different tastes. One is valid, the other isn't. Can you guess which is which?

I didn't play through the game myself from start to finish grinning like a lunatic because deep down I didn't like it, I did that because I enjoyed every last mental second of it.

Maybe it takes a certain psychological make up to enjoy it, I don't know but personally, I think it's one of the most clever and well designed platformers I've played. Not just recently, but ever.

It's not for you, cool. I'm good with that. It *is* for me. Evidently, it is for Michael too.

So y'know, opinion=good, accusations=not so, fella.

It's interesting how you feel such affection for a game that hurts you. Maybe this game isn't so far from Judith after all; both games make the player feel like a battered spouse. But while Judith knew she wanted out and couldn't escape, the players of VVVVVV put up with awful hardship and can't quite explain why.

What *are* you on about?

Awesome game. Haha! =) And definitely, The Villi People is not even that hard.

"The art / story are pretty much the same as Time Fcuk..."

Huh? Did you even play either of these games?

I can understand not liking it, but the fact that you hate it so much that you cannot fathom others enjoying it is just plain odd.

what I like in this game is the fact it's not trying to seduce you with a big "in your face" effect but instead create something with subtle touches all around.
You don't need an insane difficulty level to make a good game, even you can have a nice gaming experience without any challenge at all.
To me the big achievement in this game is you still want to play more, despite the harsh rooms of terror. It doesn't hurt me, it challenges me in a good way. Like those old games where you had a steep learning curve and then the joy of mastering the gameplay.

@Pyrrhuloxia:

That has to be the most arrogant opinion I've read in a long time. "I don't like this, so everyone that says they do must be lying or deluded." Wow.

I do not fathom that others cannot enjoy it and I agree that it takes a "certain psychological make up" to enjoy it. It is that make up that I am trying to elucidate. It is not that anyone is deliberately lying so much as this review gives arguments in favor of the game and arguments against it and though the case against is better, there is some inexplicable reason many decide that it is amazing. And I find some of the arguments in favor to be factually incorrect. I found plenty of filler material, for instance. The two demo levels seemed like they had two ideas: flipping and then flipping + bouncing spread out across every inconsequential variation. Obviously the gameplay is completely different from Time Fcuk but let me make my claim more specific by stating that the feelings of paranoia, technological disaster, and deliberate confusion are similar. My point is not to say that either game "copied" or anything because I find that rather irrelevant; my point is that the art style and sound of this game could be successfully pulled off without this particular gameplay design. I guess I must concede that the frustration of the story and the levels do correlate but the same could be said about numerous early games with tough levels and brusque exposition. Maybe the overworld makes it work; the map screen looks intriguing but is meaningless in the demo. While such maps invite me deeper into Metroid or Castlevania games with the promise of new items, this game makes me think of how painful or just boring the map will be to traverse. I guess I can't think of this as a great platforming game because the gameplay seems rather one dimensional - McKids had this kind of upside-down flipping but there were enemies to be attacked handled various ways instead of just avoiding them, and more things to collect that actually did things (I imagine the trinkets do something but their purpose is yet another frustrating obfuscation), and vehicles and the secrets were cleverly hidden while the trinkets I found were behind challenges about the same difficulty as everything else. The Punishment games also had this kind of flipping but those games understood themselves and were up front about how marginal they were due to their difficulty, VVVVVV seems oblivious. Reminds me of a Youtube comment I saw the other day about how "everyone had a Commodore 64". I grew up in a decently well-off family but even we didn't have a home computer until Windows 3.1. So maybe it is tied to playing "C64/NES/VCS2600". I did play a friend's NES as a kid but I always hated how hard the games were and still shudder at how much wasted effort was used to code levels, compose music, and create art for scenes that few mortals could ever live to see. I don't doubt that my skills are sufficient to beat "The Villi People" and much of the rest of the game, I doubt that any payoff is coming that would make it worth my time and I think that some of you are close to thinking that too. And I also want to vote with my feet to hope that the next Cavanaugh game will be one that I can love to love, rather than one I am disappointed to dislike.

Great game.. Love it. Is it just me, or is 15$ a little steep? Shadow Complex on XBLA was 15$. I think this should be around 5-10$ So many indie games are overpriced lately.

Pyrrhuloxia: That's a rather large wall of text for somebody who hasn't played the entire game. Guess what? People have opinions that are different from yours. Save your strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks for somebody who actually gives a shit.

Anonymous: Metroid, Mega Man 2 and other NES games ran from $40 to $50 dollars back in the day. VVVVVV is better than nearly all of those games, the paltry price of $15 is a steal. I totally agree with what Rob Fearon and Michael are saying, this is one of the best platformers to date. I say that without any shred of hyperbole.

"...and though the case against is better, there is some inexplicable reason many decide that it is amazing..."

This is the bit you appear to have a hard time grasping. In your opinion the case against is stronger. In my opinion (and Michael's I'd wager) it's quite the opposite.

It's not inexplicable. It's that we like it, we enjoy it - I've explained my reasons during the beta in many words as has Michael prior to this. No amount of throwing around silly is actually going to change that, man and I'm not entirely sure why it offends you so that someone should dare like something you don't.

See also your comments on "wasted code" etc...

I'm content with you disliking a game I like. I have neither issue nor problem with that but I'd appreciate it if you shown people the same courtesy.

If only because it makes it easier to take any comments or criticisms you might have easier to read and understand.

Apologies for posting anon there, the "This is the bit you appear to..." comment is mine.

And take should obviously be make.

*makes idiot cap off*

Pyrrhuloxia's posts sound like a reverse art game response. Where people get upset at art games for being all story and/or an attempted artistic gimmick with no gameplay, he is down on VVVVVV for being difficult gameplay with no story. Where some gamers can't understand why others love art games, Pyrrhuloxia doesn't understand why some gamers like head-bashing difficulty.

Note the games that Pyrrhuloxia favors, as well.

Just purchased my copy and have to say im loving it so far.
Very reminiscent of 80's 8bit games. Has a JSW feel to it.
Music rocks also!

o_O
OK, I love TC's work, and I was really waiting for this one.
I perfectly understand he's trying to make a living out of it, and I do believe he surely deserves my money for his hard work, but 15 dollars is a price I'm not yet ready to pay for a two hours long game.
I'm really sorry I have to say this, but I won't buy this game at this price. Problem is, I'm afraid others won't either. The hardcore fans and supporters maybe will, but there are very low chances the big videogame websites/magazines will review it. For the "average" gamer, 15 dollars for two hours with low res graphics can seem really expensive.
It might be the best platformer for a while, it might be really excellent, but for 15 dollars, I can get some of the very best indie games around, or several of them.
I feel a bit guilty, as I really wanted to support TC (I know he needs and deserves it) but these increasing prices really worry me, as I don't think there are enough potential customers yet. I haven't bought niffla's last game for the very same reason.
Future will tell us if less people buying a more expensive game is better for developers than more people buying it too cheap. Maybe, and I hope so for TC, but I'm afraid the customers pool is not wide enough yet.
As I understand it, the problem with indie games is not the price, it's the number of sales, and the low visibility (even on XBLA) I hope we find a balance soon. Just two years ago, developers couldn't dream of making a living out of indie games. Now they can but it still is extremely difficult.
However, on has to consider the "market". Today, charging 15 dollars for two hours isn't realistic, IMHO.
I hope I'm wrong, and I wish the best of luck to TC. He surely deserves a public and commercial success.

I'm not built for these kind of games! I got about 10 rooms through the demo, tried some tricky room where I had to fall and maneuver about three times then got frustrated and quit.

This game is bad.

"but there are very low chances the big videogame websites/magazines will review it."

It's got an Edge (8) and it'll be up on RPS later.

Kea: I think quality -- along with quantity -- should factor into that equation of yours. I honestly cannot fathom any way to 'pad' this game's length; if you try to artificially inflate the title it would be worse off. This is the best gaming exerience I've had in a long time, hands down. Just because traditional games feature needless grindfests or dozens of hours of mediocre content doesn't mean that Terry has to follow suit. I'd rather have an ounce of prime cut steak over a pound of gristle anyday.

Keep in mind that it's not just Michael, Rob and I that are championing this. The game got an 8/10 from Edge magazine, and has gotten unanimously positive reviews from other sites as well. This is a glorious way for indie games to start the year.

"This is the bit you appear to have a hard time grasping. In your opinion the case against is stronger. In my opinion (and Michael's I'd wager) it's quite the opposite."

See: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/opinion1.gif

Okay, look. I quite understand that people can have other opinions. What upsets me is whenever anyone tries to offer any constructive criticism on this site it is misconstrued as a malicious attack on the game, its maker, and everyone who likes it and/or uses this site.

I apologize for using the loaded term "lying". That and several other poor tone choices on my part mean that I deserve the response I got rather than the discussion I wanted. What I should have said is that the author of this review and I agree that there is a contradiction to this game, a pull toward frustration and a pull towards gratification. The rest of you have resolved this dilemma by focusing on the gratification; in my brain the tension ends up heading in the other direction.

I can understand the short-term reasons for this; obviously one wants to enjoy the game and this one isn't so bad that it can't be enjoyed. In the longer term, there are some C64, etc. nostalgia buttons that I can understand that aren't being pushed for me. Obviously, Terry Cavanaugh is an awesome guy and some people here have helped make the game so people have a right to be defensive. I can certainly "understand why some gamers like head-bashing difficulty". I just care more about reasons why they should. There have been some in this thread, though none have really persuaded me. I guess my standards for what I look for in games have changed recently. I really want to find something in a game that I can take out and use elsewhere in my life; I don't have time to see beating a game as an end within itself anymore. I thought that Judith was novel in that it made me feel the fear of domestic violence in a way that was very real, a way I hadn't felt from any other medium. It tied the experience to fears I had as a kid dealing with abusive parents but also differentiated the feeling, making me feel the unique contours: an adult character, a woman, part of a romantic relationship that has turned violent. Now, I came off as implying that every game should be serious and that these games like VVVVVV shouldn't exist even though they clearly have an eager audience. I'm sorry for that error. I should qualify things by saying that my arguments make more sense for the limited attention economy I'm dealing with. I want time I spend with a game to "count" and that means new experiences, finding inspiration I can apply elsewhere, learning something or being put in a positive mood, etc. Obviously some of you got those good things from this game. I didn't. Such is life.

So I tried to explain why I didn't with a couple of strategies.

One was to explain why things I saw did not strike me as new. I've seen flipping in McKids, those Punishment games, Sonic games and probably quite a few others. I've walked on ceilings in Eternal Darkness, and System Shock 2 and Dead Space also have some gravity flipping sections.

The bouncing didn't catch my fancy either I suppose and is more prevalent. The tight maneuvering through spikes reminded me of You Probably Won't Make It (which probably also inspired the blood of Super Meat Boy).

But whatever, that's kind of beside the point. Obviously everything borrows from elsewhere, I guess the execution was too difficult for my tastes. Some people may have found some of these mechanics, such as dodging enemies and spikes for the first time. Others may be seeing them with nostalgic eyes.

And, of course, I haven't played the full game. So maybe it is the perfect game for me and I will never know it. I take demos as a dev's honest attempt to sell me on the game. I can't buy every game so I have to use the demo and devs will have to deal with how people respond to that. The demo has convinced me that I should withhold my money because it is not the game I'm looking for. The demo was surely long enough for me to have a legitimate disagreement with the positive take of the review here.

I suppose it was a bad idea for me to speak in terms of fact-checking about a review. This review led me to believe that every room would be a new challenge. "Traffic jam", pictured above, is followed soon after by "The Yes men", which I found to be very similar. I found a lot of other repetitions. I now understand that others found these as uniquely worthy variations. I recognize everyone's right to that opinion.

I also didn't find the game put me in a positive or useful mood. Others may get jubilant after finishing these challenges while I felt they were meaningless. I liked Judith and many Lynch Films: they use a similar mood technique involving confusion and so on but do so to show truths about human relationships. I suppose this game could do so except with our relationship to technology but I developed a deeper such connection in Time Fcuk and Paul Virilio's books do it much better for me anyway.

I do hope the game does well so that he can make another one that I will be able to love. But yes, something stubborn, combative, arises in my psyche when I hear it called "one of the best platformers to date". I don't see how it can compare to the polished variety of SMB3 or the story, art, and puzzles of Braid. Maybe its just a non-representative demo. Maybe I'm missing out and I'll never know. But, I think that I wound find a lot of support outside of these narrow confines.

I'm not quite sure why I see multiple essays on the comments tab.

Whoa whoa whoa, ladies! What's with all the essays! Pyrrhuloxia, you can stop now, we get it: you don't like the game. So leave it be! For a game you say you hate so badly, you're spending an incredible amount of time on it!

As for those saying '$15 is too much for only a few hours of play'... how long did World of Goo last for? I spent around 3 hours completing WoG (although, truth be told, a good number of hours more on building that damn tower!) and I paid $20 for that. So 2D Boy are allowed to ask for $20 for 3 hours, but Terry can't ask $15 for 2?

This game is good.

I swear I just spent 100 jelly babies on "Doing things the hard way"

Terry can charge whatever he wants for his creation. As I said, I love his work. And I'm very happy to learn Edge reviewed it and liked it.
I sincerely hope the game sells well.
I was just giving my opinion for information. I still think it is to expensive (for me, that is.)
Yes world of goo was rather short and more expensive than vvvvvvv, but things have changed a lot for indie gaming since then.
Don't misunderstand me. I really hope the game sells well, and TC keeps on creating great games. I will be happy if this one is a success. It will mean the market is ready, somehow, to allow creator to make a living out of their art.
But I still think it is a bit expensive, and I still have to buy Zeno clash.

my only problem with the price is that you have to pay taxes on top. Which in France rise the price up to 18$/12€ I don't mind so much but it's still annoying to discover it just before the final click. Perhaps he should clearly state that's a "before taxes" price.

I just played the demo.

Whoa. This game is real genius, just like last year's Jumpman. Loved the awesome chiptune soundtrack, too.

The game is hard. So what? There's infinite lives for a reason. Just keep trying and you may succeed! Infinite lives remove most (if not all) of the frustration a lot of old games caused.

I hope this type of game never dies, and more of them keep being made. For a lot of people, this anonymous coward included, games like this one are the "real" videogames, the reason we started playing a long time ago, and the reason we keep doing it.

The demo works great under Wine (only in window mode, unfortunately). Now, if there was a native Linux version, I'd buy it this very instant, without hesitation.

I may end up buying it anyway, but a Linux version would seal the deal for me.

Pyrrhuloxia is actually right. It's a shame that fanboys with their short attention span won't be able to read his comment.

Dont know about everyone else here but I'm not a fanboy.
For me, I think why I am enjoying it so much is because theres definetly some 8bit nostalgia going on.

Maybe its like marmite - you either love it or hate it.

If you dont like it dont buy it.. seems simple to me.

This game is a piece of shit.

"This game is a piece of shit."
What's even the point of saying that?

I just finished the demo and will probably buy the game (and the soundtrack) soon. I love it.

To be honest, I played an early version of VVVVVV, and didn't really get why people were so excited about the game.

Now that I've played the demo of the finished version I get it. The small story bits got me past the initial difficulty barrier (much like in Flywrench) and then I found myself entranced in the game.

I'll definitely buy it once I got a whole day free to play it all the way through :)

Awesome.

I was under the impression that calling people fanboys was for those still going through puberty.

The demo was pretty fun, really. If that is 25% of the game, roughly, however... then it's not a very long game at all.

Never mind even the content of the game itself (though I still think it's great). It's easy to see that vvvvvv is/will be a successful game simply because of all of the debate that it's incited.

I do agree with one previous comment; that it seems a bit steep for the amount of content. But that being said, I still don't feel like I'm being ripped off. As Mike said, World of Goo was more expensive, as was Machinarium, as was Zeno clash, etc. But from reading the previews, it's not as though this was just cobbled together in a week and released.

And as another note, will the soundtrack ever be available? Those tunes had me moving in my seat, and I'd love to be able to take that on my morning commute.

I liked the demo but $15 is a bit steep for 2 hours. I don't think there's any reason for Michael to go "WHY IS IT OK FOR 2DBOY TO CHARGE $30 THEN!?", it's perfectly fair criticism (and one I'm sure Terry is interested in hearing)

@Anonymous
Yep,quantity is better than quality... we should ask Terry for longer but less polished games!

i'd like to respond to pyrrhuloxia with a wall of text because that's all he seems to understand and cause as someone capable of walls of text and someone who likes the game i feel it's my duty to do so.

okay: first i'll explain why i like the game.

i'm not really one for masochistic games. i don't find frustration enjoyable, and i did die over 1000 times while playing this game (which i beat back in november). frustration is my biggest complaint about most games, such as umbrella adventure, which i still have to review. but there are a lot of things which made it less frustrating than that 1000 death number indicates. i found this game's difficulty a whole lot less frustrating and more fluid than umbrella adventure's difficulty, mainly because respawning is instant, and movement speed is fast, and the checkpoints are very frequent. so the delay between attempts at a room is less than a second, rather than five seconds or more, and you don't go back very far. it's a 'try over and over till you succeed' game, yeah, but it's been streamlined as much as possible. there's no lives, no game over screen, no x tries and it's back to the start of the game or back to the start of the level, like in most of the games avgn reviews. it's a few inches back when you die, and unlimited lives. in that sense, the game is very forgiving. he could easily have made it a masochistic game by giving you limited lives, limited continues, less frequent checkpoints, and a longer delay between failed attempts, but he didn't, he intentionally made the game the way he did exactly to avoid frustration. so i think calling this game frustrating when compared to difficult nes games is wrong. this game is actually less frustrating than super mario bros. 3, because that game had lives and took you back to the start of the room or the world if you lost one or two many of them (respectively). and mario3 had some terribly difficult levels, such as the auto-scrolling airship levels or cannon levels.

now that i explained why i wasn't frustrated by the game, i'll explain why i *did* enjoy the game. i enjoyed the game because, as i mentioned earlier, the non-linearity and world exploration. i like being able to just go any which way i want and discover something new. i like filling out a map and realizing i'm coming to know more of the world.

i also like the game due to something that wasn't given much credit by our first wall of text guy: the story. to say the game's story is obscure is just false, the story is cute, and there's a lot of dialogue to discover and subtlety to it if you look for it. each of the characters you rescue is unique, and they say interesting things and have their own personality and even subtle romantic attractions. rescuing your crew members and filling those rooms with them and going back to talk to them for hints is great fun, and reminds me of soul blazer, how you started with an empty town and rescued people to fill it up and gradually it came to feel like home. to me, that was the absolute best part of this game, the feeling that i was rescuing people, making progress by getting people out of bad situations and into safety. terry did a great job with that. saying that the story is obscure makes no sense to me: it doesn't reveal exactly what is going on at the start of the game, but what game does? it doesn't deliberately try to hide things or confuse people, it just reveals bits and pieces of the story gradually as you go through the game, like any good jrpg does (and yes, there's such a thing as a good jrpg, to you nerds who hate them).

i also think it's a bad idea to underestimate the sheer pleasure of catharsis for many people. trying to do something 100 times, failing each time, and then finally doing it produces similar feelings to orgasm; it's just how the brain is set up. the brain enjoys stuff like that. is the pleasure at the end worth all the pain for those 100 tries? that's arguable, and dependent on the individual person. but what's inarguable is that many people do think it's worth it. bullet hell games are popular for this reason. when pigs fly is popular for this reason. there are many other examples of games which get their main value from making the player try many many times until they succeed, finally getting pleasure when they do. that pleasure is weird, and probably uniquely biological rather than a rational or aesthetic pleasure, but it is a pleasure. some people are driven more by their id than by their ego or superego, and that's great. only a very few people would ideologically make the claim that we should not enjoy animal pleasures at all, or games that focus more on animal pleasure than on ratio-linguistic pleasure or visual pleasure. but some would, there are people who hate sexual pleasure for that reason for instance, that it's just an animal pleasure. those people probably wouldn't enjoy vvvvvv, but people who enjoy the game aren't lying or secretly hating the game, they're just enjoying the pleasure the brain gets from trying something 100 times until it succeeds at it, or any of the number of other pleasures the game gives, such as the pleasure of exploring a map in whatever way you like, or the pleasure of the music and "nostalgic" (although to me they still look nothing like c64 graphics and more like the visual experimentation common in cactus's games) visuals.

now that i've explained why i liked the game, are there things i didn't like about the game? of course there are a few; i felt the enemies were a bit too simple (more like moving spikes than enemies with actual ai or unique behavior patterns). i also felt that the game was a bit short and could do with more variety in abilities, obstacles, and the like (perhaps even bosses rather than rooms that are so hard they serve as bosses). but those are minor things, only enough to take the game down from an A++ to an A+.

tl;dr version: it was my second favorite indie game i played in 2009, with glum buster being first.

Personally I don't like gardening. I don't understand who spends $1 or more for a bag of seeds.

But,

I perfectly understand who loves gardening, because I feel the same for other stuff.

I love VVVVVV. Anybody's free to hate it.

now that the wall of text response is out of the way, i can say something about the price of the game. most of you guys don't sell indie games, and have no idea how they are priced. typically you want a higher price when the game is launched, so you can lower it later to revive interest in it. if he started selling the game at $5 he couldn't have lowered it ever again.

i also want to point out something interesting and relevant about the 'pay what you want' sale for immortal defense, which i did recently.

there were 1200 sales for that sale, with prices ranging from one cent to a hundred and five dollars. 50% of the profits came from the 70 people who paid more than $20. 50% of the profits out of 1200 people, from 70 people. think about that. of the rest of the profits, the vast majority of it came from people paying around $5, or exactly $5.

more than half of the 1200 sales were two dollars or less, which basically added up to almost nothing due to paypal fees. sales in the range of one two two dollars contributed something, but nothing compared to those who paid $5 or $20 did. from that limited data, the best prices for pc shareware indie games in terms of profit (magical numbers, if you will) seem to be $20 and $5. so i actually think vvvvvv would do better at $20 than $15, and later lowering it to $5 in a few years, at least for sales.

@Blair: The soundtrack is indeed available to purchase for $4: http://souleye.madtracker.net/

$15 is too expensive, I would buy it at $10. No, $10 is too much, I would only consider VVVVVV at $5. FIVE DOLLARS for a stinking indie game, I'd buy it at $1 but $5 is crazy. A DOLLAR! FOR A GAME! A WHOLE DOLLAR, I WONT PAY THAT!

Comments about price are extremely boring to read, can't they be automatically deleted?

VVVVVV is excellent, I'm proud to pay for it. Well done Terry.

I Jesus lived today, he would be crucified for not liking shitty indie games. Some people just hate the truth.

Paul, have you considered posting an analysis of the ID sale in a manner similar to 2DBoy's PWYW sale (http://2dboy.com/2009/10/19/birthday-sale-results/) ?

Paul, you're full of truth most days, but here especially:

"in that sense, the game is very forgiving. he could easily have made it a masochistic game by giving you limited lives, limited continues, less frequent checkpoints, and a longer delay between failed attempts, but he didn't, he intentionally made the game the way he did exactly to avoid frustration. so i think calling this game frustrating when compared to difficult nes games is wrong. this game is actually less frustrating than super mario bros. 3,"

The "time to repeat" is, very commonly, a good thing to slash. Loading times as a result of failing missions for ass backward reasons are definitely where a lot of frustration in games comes from. With stuff like VVVVVV and tony hawks (in its golden age), hitting reset on your attempts increased your ability to be creative and to explore possibilities thoroughly, at a rate of knots. It allowed you to toy with the physics and mechanics of the game without punishment. It just let you get on with enjoying the game. VVVVVV is, for me, the best example of the benefits of quick respawning to date. N(+) did a good job of it too, but also happened to have a fun-to-watch death thing if you ever felt like it (which could be skipped with a manual button press).

In my book, these fast resets and low barriers to entry, but high skill ceilings are what make games the most engaging without losing a sense of challenge and depth.

Man, why do people in these comments feel like they need to express their dislike for this game with a novel-length comment?

A simple "I don't like this" would suffice.

Played the demo, and loved it! I will be buying this game soon.

The anonymous 2 up from me is right on the money. VVVVVV is pure craft.

KG

Indie games have become so "cool" to like so now even mediocre games like this get GOTY nominations.

This is a great game with a sweet soundtrack. 15$ is a bit high for a retro flash game. The game is solid, but the two first levels were so quick to beat I'm afraid to buy the 6 other levels. I was teased by the overworld but I just don't know enough of it. I enjoyed the demo a lot though!

Portal is only 15 minutes long, it must be insanely overpriced.

*rollseyes*

Bought it last night, beat it a few hours later, absolutely loved every moment of it. Great job on the game!

I've only played the demo but for me the jumps/flips that span multiple screens don't feel right. They seem to disrupt the flow of the game. Perhaps some sort of camera lead would have helped?

That said I did finish the demo and enjoyed it as a whole.

I liked the demo very much, but 15 USD is too much for me, sorry.

I find it odd how this game gets called "retro" and "8-Bit" style, when it's got nothing of it. It's got minimal graphics, yeah, but that doesn't make it retro yet. Stickfigure games would be retro too then, or do they need to be blocky for that?

In the end, before I buy a game, I actually look at what it looks like. I decide whether or not a game's worth checking out based on screenshots and videos. They show how much effort there's been put in a game. These screenshots say enough. I'm not even going to touch this. You all can hype it up all you want, and you all can bash everybody who expresses dislike. That won't matter to people not visiting these sites, but going through XBLA/Steam/other portals and skip this game because it looks the way it does.

Portal isn't 15 minutes long, doofus.

Played through level 1 and 2 of demo. Level 1 I was like, it's ok, but level 2 it's pure creativity and when the real game starts to grow into you. It left wondered what is to come. Really good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHGOFfY9oPg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI1PrnuYoOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwnfky3FH30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaocoSjsFIM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKfkJB-Jg0g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cedfdZs128

Just because YOU didn't beat Portal in 15 minutes doesn't mean there's more than 15 minutes of gameplay.
Similarly, just because a game is "a couple hours" long doesn't mean you won't be playing it for weeks.

Usually when someone estimates the amount of time it takes to beat a game, they don't use speedrun times. FYI

*shrug*
A price-to-game-length judgement is already iffy, and then you advocate not establishing a measurable baseline?
Sounds like baseless complaining, then.

Note to self: Stop reading indiegames.com comments.

A measurable baseline? Don't be ridiculous. A speedrun is about the worst measure of the actual average playtime someone new to the game might reasonably expect to spend playing through the main portion of a game for the first time.

I know you're just trying to be a toolbox, but seriously...

Okay, I've got some points to make.

If you have a beef with the game, simply say "I don't care for this," and walk away. Nobody's forcing you to buy the game, or even play the free demo. don't call it shitty, and don't use walls of text to get your point of negativety across. Also, this game is retro, as it's difficulty is decidedly retro, and it doesn't have the most complex story ever. In Ninja Gaiden, the only real story was to avenge your father's death. And you should be thankful this isn't as hard as Ninja Gaiden. So stop complaining, and just leave us normal people alone!

No, the point I'm making is that there is NO "actual average playtime someone new to the game might reasonably expect to spend", and judging a game based on what you imagine might be one is just silly.

Guys, enough with the bullshit 'omg a Portal speedrun is well fast and stuff' argument. Believe me when I say that it is possibly the most boring argument I have ever heard, and I've seen PLENTY of boring and pointless arguments on here!

Holy $h%t! Some people are willing to spend the better part of a day leaving a negative comment as to why they hate the game??? HAHAHAHAHA that's just so funny, and yet sad at the same time.

I think it's unanimous that most of the people who have posted a comment like the game. Why some individuals would leave comments that probably took more than a couple of hours to articulate their negative feelings toward this game (or any game for that matter) - when they haven't even bought the game yet - is beyond me and yet I find it funny.

Anyway, I had a good laugh, now to get back to playing VVVVVV!

Good work getting this done Terry! I wish you the best of success!

Now to get back to obtaining all those bloody trinkets! :)

"If you have a beef with the game, simply say "I don't care for this," and walk away."

Actually, since most reviews on this site are already quite "positive" (if not biased), some useful criticism isn't going to hurt.

I had a lot of fun playing this game :)

How easy will it be to pirate this game? Is it a standalone download, or does it involve connecting to a server with flash, etc?

"useful criticism" is different from angry ranting. criticism is fine by itself, but it's the latter that i could do without.

"useful criticism is different from angry ranting. criticism is fine by itself, but it's the latter that i could do without."

And that's exactly why i said what i said. People do rant instead of using useful criticism. So just forget about all the ranting.

"If you have a beef with the game, simply say "I don't care for this," and walk away. Nobody's forcing you to buy the game, or even play the free demo."

Actually, that's not true. I've spent the better part of the day holding up people at gunpoint, forcing them to purchase the game online, and then pointing a gun at them and making them play the game. It was on the local news. I'm wanted in two states for this now.

"Also, this game is retro, as it's difficulty is decidedly retro, and it doesn't have the most complex story ever."

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever read on here, and you guys do know how to display an utter lack of intelligence :D

Um.......

How is it that Deceased Crab decided to go check out the comments? This is awesome!

DC I assume that means that you're doing an LP of it (assuming it's actually you)?

That would be super spectacular.

Yes! Got all 20 trinkets!
Only to find theres more game after that.
Someone mentioned earlier 2 hours of playtime - I can definetly say theres way more than 2 hours here..
Hell, it took me over 3 hours to complete the game without finding the secrets!

I can definitely see how/why someone might love or hate this game a lot.

Maybe it's the aesthetic being a bit jarring/(I never had a c64) or the total-lack-of-inertia movement, but I can't bring myself to be crazy about it.

It's definitely *good*, the level/world design has clearly had a lot of thought and effort put into it, the scale of it all is impressive..

This feels a lot like music that all my friends are way more into than me -- I can see that it's good, that people could be really into it, but something just doesn't click/gel with me.

Probably the haters feel the same way, but they're trying to counter-act all the praise and hyperbole which they disagree with and/or don't understand.

Because it's definitely not a bad game, not by a long shot -- it just might not be everyone's cup of tea.

I don't know about the "better than Metroid" claims though.

"DC I assume that means that you're doing an LP of it (assuming it's actually you)?

That would be super spectacular."

He is doing an LP. And i'm pretty sure nobody else could think up something that crazy.

I love retro pixel art, i love exploratory platformers and i like a challenge.

So yeah i love this game to. Keep making more like this TC, I'll buy em all.

Of course this might not be so much fun for your casual indie gamer, its pretty damn tough at times.

Dunno what VVVVVV is worth,
but I'll happily pay US$15 *to indiegames.com* if they...
(a) Stop anon comments
&
(b) Limit comments to 150 words.

@Kea:

"for 15 dollars, I can get some of the very best indie games around"

This is one of the best indie games around! The $15 asking price seems entirely justified to me. It may be rather short, but it's the kind of game you'll find yourself coming back to, as the mechanics work so well (like the short platformers in the NES days that I'd play over and over). It's not the kind of game you play through once to see what happens, which you may be expecting from TC's earlier work. Long story short: it's not to be missed. Provided you like a challenge.

"I can definitely see how/why someone might love or hate this game a lot.

Maybe it's the aesthetic being a bit jarring/(I never had a c64) or the total-lack-of-inertia movement, but I can't bring myself to be crazy about it.

It's definitely *good*, the level/world design has clearly had a lot of thought and effort put into it, the scale of it all is impressive..

This feels a lot like music that all my friends are way more into than me -- I can see that it's good, that people could be really into it, but something just doesn't click/gel with me."

Now this is some good criticism! some people can learn a thing or two about this.

"AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever read on here, and you guys do know how to display an utter lack of intelligence :D"

That really hurts. Why would you go and say something like that? You hurt my feelings. What purpose could that possibly solve? You know what? Get out.

@Gabe: I'm a starving writer, and I might just take you up on that offer. ;)

I really don't get the "$15 is too much to pay for a 2-hour long game" comments. I mean, how much is a cinema ticket for a 2-hour film in the US? How much is a meal in a decent restaurant?
In the UK it's priced at £8.99, which is about the same as three pints of beer. Compared to this, VVVVVV is very good value for money.

@Gabe: I'll hold you to that

@raigan: "[...] the total-lack-of-inertia movement[...]"

I don't think heavy inertia is a very good idea for a precision platformer. Just imagine if Megaman controlled like Mario or Sonic.
And for the record, VVVVVV actually does have slight inertia.

@Capt. Duck: That's not retro pixel art, or pixel art at all.

@Tim @Agitated Rose.
Perhaps I should have written my 1st idea for a comment instead.

(Which was, "Miyamoto never had to read comments this long.")

I bet Miyamoto never got this many comments on one of his games, either.

For an example of other short deals for $15, Braid only lasted around 45 minutes to an hour. I admit it, I fucking loved this game.

I wonder how long $15 will keep you going with a hooker.

I swear, I was half-expecting Pyrrhuloxia to mention "Flytrap was better" somewhere in his spiel. Adam Coate, rest in piece.

God I love this game; mirror mode is currently kicking my ass and I still have a grin that'd put the Joker to shame. I'd double that expected play-time; like most of my favorite media it practically begs to be completed a second time.

The interesting thing about this is how much publicity had this game before being released, so many reviews telling us it is going to be so awsome we could hardly believe it... didn´t they told us too much what to think? Of course we all love Terry, he has a great courage on quitting hi job to follow a dream and he brought us some amazing games...

I can say that I am enjoying the game, but I must say I find it worst than his previous games. I like the exploration, the game mechanic is clever, the level design is excellent and the music is very catchy, but still I don't find it so revolutionary. The worst thing are defenitely the "enemies", I would rather prefer to have just moving spikes, they feel incoherent and meaningless to me.

Personally I bought the game to support the work of a developper I like the same way I go to see a movie of a director I like even if the last one is worse than the previous. And I feel that I am paying also for those games he did for free and which touched me so deep.

Surprisingly, not as good as I had hoped. Still, a very, very fun game.

Just not quite worth 15 dollars. Maybe if it drops in price someday...

Dang, controls still feel a little off to me.

Also, the price should definitely be lowered to $10 I think.

"He is doing an LP. And i'm pretty sure nobody else could think up something that crazy."

Haha, true true. I checked right after I made that post.

I just wanted to add on yet another comment to the longest comment thread I've ever seen on indiegames.com.

I finished the main game (and have 13 trinkets so far).

I have to agree that the price is high. I realize you can't just determine the price of the game by comparing the value offered by other games, because then it would have to be free.(many of my favourite and most played games have been free... the first America's Army, Bridge Builder, Trackmania Nations, among others)

I like short games with a lot of unique gameplay, and have bought a few of over the last couple of years that cost about $10 each... mostly when they are on sale (Portal, Braid, World of Goo, Machinarium) I don't feel that VVVVV belongs to this elite group of games.

I don't regret buying VVVVVV for $10, but I understand why most of the comments I've seen about VVVVVV on this and other gaming sites are about its price.

Oh come on, there is no way Pyrrhuloxia is not a troll.

Maybe everybody here is a troll EXCEPT Pyrrhuloxia. Some of the fanboys here bashing everybody who dares show dislike for the game are trolls.

Yeah, it's great how typical indiefans can go on and on about the merits of a game without any restriction, and when someone criticizes the game, everyone says "CANT U JUST SAY U DUN LIKE IT AND MOVE ON SHEESH!".

I don't have a problem with criticism, if you read some comments you'll see that. What i am saying is that i have a problem with criticism that goes too far. And then people cover there tracks by saying they didn't mean to say something! That may be a completely shallow opinion of mine, but sometimes you guys can be so hurtful! The one time I decide to check out the comments, I see people bashing this game. Why call it a piece of shit? They don't do this on the Spelunky or Cave story forums.

I find Spelunky a piece of shit too. It looks better than this game, and comes closer to pixel art or retro. I also can understand how some people enjoy it, but when I tried it, it felt like playing a great game where some kid opened the executable in Notepad, changed some random ASCII characters to some other random ones, then saved it, completely messing the game up, making it impossible to control properly and, although every single tile looks good, the total turns out a mess.

That's my opinion, though. To me, Spelunky's overhyped shit. I can understand that people who actually figure out what's going on there and how to properly control it, might like it.

Cave Story, any way you turn or twist it, can't be called shit, except if you're trolling. There's some real effort in it, it's got a style that's pleasant to watch and took some effort -- unlike VVVVVVVV, which looks as if the developer wanted to be rid of the graphics part ASAP --, has a compelling story, genuine music and it actually feels like a game. That's something most indie games nowadays fail. They don't feel like a game. Just the screenshots of VVVVVVV make it seem like one of those as well, as they tend to look like just that.

And I agree with Anonymous. There's no recognizable gridbase in the graphics, so it's as much pixel art as Oblivion or Halo. It seems to be indie to call crap graphics retro or pixel art. That's an insult to all pixel artists.

Resume of all the comments above:

Some People: I like it.

Other people: I don't like it.

I do like any insult you can paraphrase as "This looks ugly - and ugly in the wrong way!".

KG

I love this game.

I am disappointed. The music, on the other hand, is awesome!.

I don't like it. I like the feel, I like the music, I like the general quality of the construction but together it doesn't produce a game I would sit through from start to finish.

Why so blue?

"Some of the fanboys here bashing everybody who dares show dislike for the game are trolls."

Oh, poor little thing, did the big scary fanboys say mean things?

"criticizes"

I don't think you understand the meaning of this word. 'This game is a piece of shit!' is not criticism.

Nobody has posted a real criticism of the game.

Also you're both morons, stop posting.

"unlike VVVVVVVV, which looks as if the developer wanted to be rid of the graphics part ASAP"

Uhh, I've never played a C64/Spectrum game in my life and even I know that's what Terry was trying to imitate with the graphical style.

You too are a moron, and should also stop posting.

Kongming is wrong and thus a moron and henceforth should stop posting. QED

I tried the demo. It's brilliant. Much better than I would have thought. I will probably end up buying it, but I find the price is very steep. If I compare the value to, say, "Samorost 2" or "world of goo", the first is cheaper and has better production value, while the latter is priced similarly but has both a more lenthy campaign and higher production value.

Many indie developers would have released a game such as this for free (and I am aware Terry Cavanagh is one of those generous people when it comes to his other games). I perfectly respect the fact that this time he wants to get paid, but a 5-10 price tage would have been more reasonable.

It's not so much the production value (actually, the lack of it is part of the appeal, but frankly developing the graphics for this game must have been much less time and ressource-intensive than other premium indie titles), but the fact that the main quest lasts only for two hours.

But, to end on a positive note, I want to congratulate Tonny for a brilliant idea and a brilliant execution of it.

Please Anon, if you're going to imitate my style, at least do it right. I always show why someone is wrong before I insult them. You have merely insulted me. Your use of QED is entirely erroneous!

No, you don't. You say: "You're wrong" and then insult.

it's good. more than worth the price of a large pizza. i'll leave it at that.

"There's no recognizable gridbase in the graphics, so it's as much pixel art as Oblivion or Halo."

I realize blog comments is one of the worst places to argue these things but, really.
Really now?
Pixel art is defined, not by the careful manipulation of single pixels but, by a 'recognizable gridbase'??
That means almost none of the pieces on pixeljoint, for example, are pixel art.

Really??

I think that's what's known as "making things up", Johan.

Needs more cubism, though.

I just though it was a particularly bizarre requirement to use when deciding if something is pixel art or not. I can't imagine how that could make sense to anybody.

It's like he somehow never in his life learned what a pixel is, and has just heard the term 'pixel art' a few times from people talking about old video games?

"It's interesting how you feel such affection for a game that hurts you."

This is like saying “It’s interesting how much affection people have for films in which bad things happen to characters the audience cares about."

I'm all for people criticizing--even harshly-- games and films. But a line like that reveals a lot more about the person typing it than it does about VVVVVV.

People think criticism just means insulting something in a hilarious fashion, but a good criticism should take into account good and bad and try to assess the overall worth. So yeah, there's no criticism in these comments, just a bunch of trolls and anonymous douches who don't have a point or coherent argument.

!!!!FREE ADVICE!!!!

get a life

I like this game from the demo, but I don't think I'll pay £9 for it. I respect that some people will, it's their money after all.

But charging high and then reducing the price a few weeks later to reignite intrest is a dangerous strategy, let's face it, it'll be on pirate bay tomorrow for free, and nothing makes people justify pirating like feeling they're being overcharged.

like it, will buy

Exactly. Would have bought this for $5.

At $15 it's just silly. Not enough content, plain and simple. There are tons of similar games with just as much work put into them that are 100% free.

amazing game. easily worth 15 dollars. according to the clock I've spent 4 and a half hours on it so far. finished the story, rescued all the guys. just finishing up those last pickups and looking at the other modes now. I think this is pretty great value. love the extra stuff unlocked after it finished.

I don't think Pyrr is a troll, to be honest.

I think that mostly British culture and humour totally evade his understanding.

In fact, many of the questions he asked about the narrative style of the game--and the things he considered pointless--would be assuaged by such an understanding.

I'd imagine that if I sat Pyrr down in front of The Life of Brian, or an episode of Red Dwarf, he'd wave his hands around angrily, pointing at things that didn't make sense, picking up on stuff that was actually a joke and taking it far too seriously, and trying to dissect the purpose of there being a space battle in the middle of a story about Christ.

I think he's a very -serious- person, and he just won't get VVVVVV. Not everyone understands everything.

Personally, I completely adore VVVVVV, and yes, I'm British. I have love unending for it, as I've exclaimed elsewhere.

But again, there are games which the majority finds popular that I despise--such ass the snore-fest that is Dragon Age: Origins--and whenever I air my thoughts about that, I tend to get press-ganged into submission.

Pitchforks and torches don't really help any given situation.

Mob mentality is bad.

VVVVVV is good.

And VVVVVV won't be any less good to me regardless sof whomever says it's shit, and thus I have no reason to be defensive, neither should any of you!

Just know it's a brilliant game and talk it up! Mobbing someone with a negative opinion is a waste of energy and it just makes sthe mob look bad than the person with the negative opinion.

durr hurr hurr anyone who likes something i don't is a moron derp derp

In all fairness, Anonymous, when dealing with opinions is there anyone who doesn't actually think that? From what I've observed, it's a human failing and I haven't found a human that doesn't have it thus far.

It's just that some people actually let it slip, but if someone insults something that you like, or if a game you like is getting ignored in favour of a game you despise, then the people with the opposing opinions are idiots.

It's Psych 101.

If there was an apology, people could just get on with their lives.

And again, to be fair (I'll stop after this), there are many, many people here who're yelling at Pyrr (or anyone who doesn't like the game) for being a moron, too. Some are doing it as clear as day, some are enclosing it in a wrapper of friendlier words, but it's still happening.

I know everyone's a hypocrite, and that's human psych 101 again, but the problem is is that everyone won't actually notice that.

So from where I sit, those picking on Pyrr are as bad--if not worse--than Pyrr's original post.

Too much self-righteous lovers in this thread.

"I think that mostly British culture and humour totally evade his understanding."

I think he is British himself. Things tend to get misty after the tenth, or so, beer.

His comments were great, actually.

Is this released on PSN and XBLA yet?? More so on PSN because I'd really like to get this on my PS3! I'll buy it if it comes out ASAP!

And again, to be fair (I'll stop after this), there are many, many people here who're yelling at Pyrr (or anyone who doesn't like the game) for being a moron, too.

There's a difference between calling someone a moron for liking something you don't like and calling someone a moron for making arguments that don't actually make sense.

i just spent a huge chunk of my life reading comments... i might as wellov been playing the game :/

I was ready to buy this game just because I liked Don't Look Back so much. But I couldn't make it through the second demo level, so that's it for me. It began as fun and quickly became torture.

Well, back to Hook Champ!

To those referencing character inertia-

This appears to be a bug in the game: inertia seems to vary widely between different players on different systems. My copy has very little inertia, meaning it's way easier. if you have high inertia or "slippery", frictionless controls, consider going to the related post on the game's forum to help nail down the bug and maybe get it fixed.

http://distractionware.com/forum/

This game made me feel like a pre-teen again, I loved it so much, I got the freemans catalogue out.